Gedrag
Obv superioriteit
Obv opeisen van een speciale behandeling (entitlement).
Obv cognitieve empathie Obv emotionele (affectieve) empathie
Obv zelfreflectie en verantwoordelijkheid en schuld afschuiven
Sociaal mimikry (kopieergedrag) Imiteert, acteert en leert sociaal wenselijk gedrag puur op basis van logica af om erbij te horen, niet vanuit echt gevoel.
Gecamoufleerd gebrek: Compenseert het missen van échte empathie door emoties van anderen af te kijken en perfect na te bootsen wanneer de situatie dat vereist.
Strategisch toneelspel: Gebruikt aangeleerde emoties en gekopieerd gedrag als een gereedschapskist om maatschappelijk geaccepteerd te worden en het eigen gebrek aan gevoel te maskeren.
Geveinsd compensatiegedrag: Maskeert het innerlijke gebrek aan écht gevoel door sociaal wenselijke emoties perfect na te bootsen en te veinzen wanneer de situatie dat vereist.
=====================================
Obv de mate van egocentricme / ik, ik, ik, ik / middelpunt van de belangstelling moeten staan / aandacht niet willen delen met anderen.
Obv de autoriteit moeten zijn.
Obv zelfbeeld / eigenwaarde / zelfvertrouwen / zelfacceptatie. Obv mate van eigenwaarde is afhankelijkheid van de bevestiging van de buitenwereld.
Obv grandiositeit / pronken / exhibitionisme
Obv slachtofferschap.
Obv aandacht gevestigd hebben op / Obv narcistische voeding die ze nodig hebben / obv behoeften waar de buitenwereld in moet voorzien (fysieke aantrekkelijkheid en verzorging, intellect, redder zijn, helper zijn, pronken met trofeeën (andere mensen),
Obv achterdocht of paranoia.
Obv mate van sadisme (plezier beleven) aan het psychisch of fysiek vernietigen van anderen.
Obv uitbuiting
Is subtiel
Is meer luidruchtig
Verdraagt geen: kritiek of feedback of wat dan ook
Verdraagt geen: nee/ ongehoorzaamheid / geen-volgzaamheid
Geen rem
Geen excuses
Geen verandering
- Once you see it, you can't unsee it -
Deze website is nieuw en is gemaakt door een hobbyist op het gebied van narcistisch gedrag.
De content van deze website wijkt af van hoe psychologen "mensen met narcistische kenmerken of mensen met een narcistische persoonlijkheidsstoornis" beschrijven.
Mocht je willen toetsen in hoeverre de content op deze website aansluit bij het officiele beeld van narcisme, raadpleeg dan een psychoog. Of een persoon die is gediagnosticeerd als persoon met narcistisch persoonlijkheidsstoornis. Of raadpleeg een psychoog die zelf gediagnosticeerd is als....
Het woord "narcisten"
Op deze website wordt de term 'narcist' gebruikt. Hoewel omschrijvingen zoals 'iemand met sterke narcistische patronen' of 'iemand met de diagnose narcistische persoonlijkheidsstoornis' psychologisch gezien accurater en milder zijn, is op deze website bewust gekozen voor de kortere schrijfwijze. Dit is gedaan om de teksten voor de lezer overzichtelijk, vlot en direct leesbaar te houden. Achter deze kortere term gaat altijd het inzicht schuil dat het gaat om een menselijke dynamiek op een spectrum.
Narcist verborgen
Basis
Emotionele staat
Zichzelf continue overtuigen van perfectie, onfeilbaarheid, rechtvaardiging, uitzonderlijkheid, grandioosheid
Transactioneel denken
2x2 Uitersten in denken
10x Niet + 10x Wel
2 Doelen (narcistische voeding krijgen + bescherming perfecte zelf = zelf willen geloven in perfecte zelf)
2 Volumes (overt, covert)
9 Typen
Mate van bewustzijn van de narcist
Mate van bereidwilligheid om te veranderen
Gedrag (waarneembaar)
Gedrag van de narcist dat ontstaat uit bovenstaande (gedrag = doen en niet-doen)
Redenen voor switch in gedrag
Resultaten
Winst / voeding voor de narcist
Verliezen voor de narcist
Check list
Waarneembaar gedrag richting jou / de omgevingVink aanDe charmante kameleon & spiegelen: Past zich feilloos aan jouw smaak, normen en waarden aan om een diepe klik te veinzen.[ ]Love bombing & fast-tracking: Creëert een intense wervelwind; overlaadt je met complimenten en wil té snel exclusiviteit.[ ]Future faking: Doet grootse, fantastische beloftes over de toekomst die achteraf nooit worden waargemaakt.[ ]Gesprekskaping: Stuurt elk gesprek subtiel of luidruchtig terug naar zichzelf of de eigen ervaringen.[ ]Helden- of redderscomplex: Profileert zich als dé ultieme helper, maar eist daarachter gesloten deuren extreme loyaliteit voor op.[ ]Predatory Praise: Geeft heel strategische, overdreven complimenten om je later makkelijker te kunnen sturen.[ ]Associatieve trots (BIRGing): Pronkt extreem met de prestaties, status of titels van anderen om zelf belangrijker te lijken.[ ]Hoovering & intermitterende beloning: Wisselt warmte en ijskoude afstand onvoorspelbaar af om je emotioneel aan het lijntje te houden.[ ]
🖤 Categorie 2: Zwarte Investeringen (Macht, Straf & Isolatie)
Actief gedrag om controle en macht te verkrijgen/behouden, jou te devaluereen en afhankelijkheid te creëren.
Waarneembaar gedrag richting jou / de omgevingVink aanInformatie verzamelen als munitie: Vraagt diep door naar jouw geheimen of trauma's, om dit later tegen je te gebruiken.[ ]Verschuivende maatstaven (moving the goalposts): Wat je ook doet, het is nooit goed genoeg; de regels veranderen continu.[ ]Isolatie: Probeert je weg te houden bij vrienden, familie of hobby's om je volledig afhankelijk te maken.[ ]Guilt tripping: Bestookt je met schuldgevoelens; jij bent áltijd de reden dat zij zich slecht voelen.[ ]Eenzijdige oorlogsvoering & kleineren: Kraakt je constant af of vernedert je, vaak verpakt als 'een grapje'.[ ]Silent treatment & sociale uitsluiting: Straft je bij conflicten met een ijzige stilte of sluit je bewust buiten.[ ]Controle & micro-management: Wil totale controle over wat je denkt, doet of met wie je omgaat (vaak verpakt als 'goede zorg').[ ]Het Trojaanse Paard-cadeau: Geeft een cadeau of gunst waar achteraf een emotionele of manipulatieve prijs aan vastzit.[ ]
🌫️ Categorie 3: Het Rookgordijn (Afweren, Verbergen & Verdraaien)
Gedrag om het perfecte zelfbeeld te beschermen, kritiek af te weren en ontmaskering te voorkomen.
Waarneembaar gedrag richting jou / de omgevingVink aanGaslighting: Ontkent glashard vaststaande feiten of situaties, waardoor jij aan je eigen gezonde verstand gaat twijfelen.[ ]Blame shifting & projectie: Beschuldigt jou exact van het toxische of stiekeme gedrag dat zíj vertonen.[ ]DARVO (Rollen omdraaien): Ontkent, valt jou aan en neemt direct de slachtofferrol aan zodra je hen aanspreekt op hun gedrag.[ ]Verwarring zaaien & confabulatie: Bestookt je met warrige argumenten, leugens en verdraaide werkelijkheden om de inhoud te ontwijken.[ ]Smaadcampagne: Verspreidt achter je rug om leugens of verdraaide verhalen bij anderen om jouw reputatie te beschadigen.[ ]Triangulatie: Haalt er bewust derden, exen of vrienden bij om jou jaloers, onzeker of buitengesloten te maken.[ ]Verborgen agenda's & geheim gedrag: Leeft in een web van stiekem gedrag; de omgeving mag absoluut niet alles weten.[ ]
⚡ Categorie 4: Ongecontroleerd Reactief Gedrag (Kortsluiting)
Plotseling gedrag waarbij de controle wegvalt en de ware destructieve aard direct zichtbaar wordt.
Waarneembaar gedrag richting jou / de omgevingVink aanPlotseling vijandig omslaan: Slaat uit het niets en ongecontroleerd om van heel vriendelijk naar extreem vijandig.[ ]Narcistische woede & agressie: Reageert op de kleinste vorm van kritiek of afwijzing met een explosieve, razende woede-uitbarsting.[ ]Ongecontroleerd uithalen: Begint plotseling te schreeuwen, schelden, kleineren of intimideren zodra de controle wegvalt.[ ]
🚫 Categorie 5: Nalaten (De Grote Afwezigen)
Het volledig achterwege laten van gedrag dat in een normale, gezonde relatie wel verwacht mag worden.
Wat de persoon structureel achterwege laat (Nalaten)Vink aanGeen empathie: Toont ijskoude onverschilligheid of totale emotionele blindheid voor jouw pijn of verdriet.[ ]Geen zelfreflectie & verantwoordelijkheid: Is absoluut onmachtig om kritisch naar het eigen aandeel te kijken of schuld te bekennen.[ ]Geen verontschuldigingen & herstelgedrag: Biedt nooit oprecht excuses aan en toont geen enkele verandering in het gedrag.[ ]
Narcisten hebben vaak een beperkt zelfinzicht en ervaren hun eigen gedrag niet als het probleem.
Voor veel narcisten is hun eigen gezin of relatie een verlengstuk van hun status. Ze willen naar de buitenwereld toe het perfecte plaatje laten zien: de succesvolle ouder met de perfecte kinderen en een harmonieus huwelijk.
narcisten houden over het algemeen enorm van ja-knikkers. Dit komt omdat mensen die overal in meegaan en nooit kritiek leveren, perfect aansluiten op de psychologische behoeften van iemand met narcistische trekken.
Waarom narcisten ja-knikkers zoeken
- Voeden van het ego: Narcisten hebben een constante stroom van bewondering en bevestiging nodig (ook wel narcistische voeding genoemd). Ja-knikkers geven deze bevestiging continu.
- Geen kritiek: Een narcist heeft vaak een broos zelfbeeld en kan extreem slecht tegen kritiek of tegenspraak. Ja-knikkers vormen geen bedreiging voor dit zelfbeeld.
- Makkelijke controle: Mensen die geen eigen grenzen stellen of snel toegeven, zijn door een narcist eenvoudig te manipuleren en te controleren.
narcisten zoeken in de basis geen nee-knikkers, maar ze worden er soms wel door aangetrokken. Dit klinkt tegenstrijdig, maar het hangt volledig af van de dynamiek en de fase van een relatie of samenwerking.
Dit is hoe narcisten omgaan met mensen die 'nee' zeggen:
Waarom ze nee-knikkers in eerste instantie vermijden
- Bedreiging voor het ego: Een nee-knikker geeft kritiek, stelt grenzen en twijfelt aan de superioriteit van de narcist. Dit veroorzaakt narcistische krenking, wat de narcist koste wat kost wil voorkomen.
- Gebrek aan controle: Iemand die standvastig is en tegengas geeft, laat zich niet emotioneel manipuleren. Dat maakt diegene onbruikbaar als bron van constante bewondering.
Waarom ze tóch aangetrokken kunnen worden door nee-knikkers
Soms zoekt een narcist bewust of onbewust juist wel mensen op die sterk in hun schoenen staan. Dit heeft twee belangrijke redenen:
- De kick van de 'jacht': Voor een narcist heeft het veroveren of manipuleren van een zelfverzekerd, succesvol of kritisch persoon veel meer status. Het geeft een enorme kick om een sterke 'nee-knikker' uiteindelijk te veranderen in een 'ja-knikker'.
- Status door associatie: Narcisten omringen zich graag met mensen die hoog in aanzien staan. Als zo'n onafhankelijk persoon hen tóch bewondert, streelt dat hun ego des te meer.
Wat gebeurt er als een nee-knikker voet bij stuk houdt?
Als de nee-knikker weigert te buigen, loopt het contact bijna altijd uit op een conflict. De narcist zal dan vaak overgaan tot:
- Gaslighting: Het verdraaien van de waarheid om de nee-knikker aan zichzelf te laten twijfelen.
- Devaluatie: Het zwartmaken, negeren of belachelijk maken van de ander om de eigen macht te herstellen.
- Afstoting: Als de narcist merkt dat de ander écht niet te breken of te controleren valt, wordt de relatie vaak abrupt verbroken.
Wanneer noem jij iemand een narcist?
Het willekeurig opplakken van het etiket 'narcist' is onterecht en schadelijk, omdat een narcistische persoonlijkheidsstoornis (NPS) een officiële diagnose is die uitsluitend door een getrainde psycholoog of psychiater kan worden vastgesteld.
Als ik iemand zie die vaak met een zaag en een hamer aan het werk is, noem ik die persoon een timmerman of timmervrouw. Een patroon dat niet veranderd.
Als ik iemand dagelijks in de weer zie met honden, dan noem ik deze persoon een hondenliefhebber.
Als ik iemand zie die dagelijks sport, noem ik die persoon een sporter.
En als ik iemand zie die continu narcistisch gedrag vertoont, noem ik die persoon een narcist.
Ik ben geen psychiater en ik stel geen medische diagnoses. Maar net zoals bij de timmerman en de bakker, benoem ik de ander gewoon naar het overduidelijke gedrag dat diegene dag in, dag uit laat zien.
Obv superioriteit
Obv opeisen van een speciale behandeling (entitlement).
Obv cognitieve empathie Obv emotionele (affectieve) empathie
Obv zelfreflectie en verantwoordelijkheid en schuld afschuiven
Sociaal mimikry (kopieergedrag) Imiteert, acteert en leert sociaal wenselijk gedrag puur op basis van logica af om erbij te horen, niet vanuit echt gevoel.
Gecamoufleerd gebrek: Compenseert het missen van échte empathie door emoties van anderen af te kijken en perfect na te bootsen wanneer de situatie dat vereist.
Strategisch toneelspel: Gebruikt aangeleerde emoties en gekopieerd gedrag als een gereedschapskist om maatschappelijk geaccepteerd te worden en het eigen gebrek aan gevoel te maskeren.
Geveinsd compensatiegedrag: Maskeert het innerlijke gebrek aan écht gevoel door sociaal wenselijke emoties perfect na te bootsen en te veinzen wanneer de situatie dat vereist.
=====================================
Obv de mate van egocentricme / ik, ik, ik, ik / middelpunt van de belangstelling moeten staan / aandacht niet willen delen met anderen.
Obv de autoriteit moeten zijn.
Obv zelfbeeld / eigenwaarde / zelfvertrouwen / zelfacceptatie. Obv mate van eigenwaarde is afhankelijkheid van de bevestiging van de buitenwereld.
Obv grandiositeit / pronken / exhibitionisme
Obv slachtofferschap.
Obv aandacht gevestigd hebben op / Obv narcistische voeding die ze nodig hebben / obv behoeften waar de buitenwereld in moet voorzien (fysieke aantrekkelijkheid en verzorging, intellect, redder zijn, helper zijn, pronken met trofeeën (andere mensen),
Obv achterdocht of paranoia.
Obv mate van sadisme (plezier beleven) aan het psychisch of fysiek vernietigen van anderen.
Obv uitbuiting
Is subtiel
Is meer luidruchtig
Verdraagt geen: kritiek of feedback of wat dan ook
Verdraagt geen: nee/ ongehoorzaamheid / geen-volgzaamheid
Geen rem
Geen excuses
Geen verandering
Aantal vinkjes
De charmante as
De middelpunt van de aandacht as
De zelfvertrouwen / eigenwaarde as
De behoefte aan narcistische voeding as
De open superioriteits-as: in welke mate ze zichzelf beter, slimmer of specialer vinden dan anderen.
De verborgen superioriteits-as
De empathie-as (cognitieve): Afwezig vs. Cognitief (Berekend) vs. Selectief
De empathie-as (affectieve/emotionele):
De Zelfreflectie-as:
De unieke rechten as
De luidruchtigheid as
De slachtoffer as
De concurreren met anderen as
De manipulatie-as
De triangulatie as
De gevoelig voor kritiek as
De controle-over andermans denken en gedrag willen hebben:
De Focus-as: Somatisch vs. Cerebraal vs. Communaal vs. Elitair
De Volume-as: Overt vs. Covert
De Oorsprong-as: Klassiek vs. Compensatoir
De Functionele as: Hoogfunctionerend vs. Laagfunctionerend
De Relationele as: kortstondig en oppervlakkig vs, langdurig en diepgaand
De Stabiliteits-as: Rigide/Stabiel vs. Fluctuerend/Instabiel
De Transactionele as: Wederkerig vs. Extreem Transactioneel (Mens als Gebruiksvoorwerp)
De exploitatieve as
De arrogantie as
De anderen zijn jaloers op mij as
De jaloers op anderen zijn as
De Bewustzijns-as: Volledig Onbewust vs. Berekend Bewust
De ontkennen van de werkelijkheid-as
De kritiek-verdragen-as
De schuld afschuiven as
De Schuld- en Verantwoordelijkheids-as: Interne Verantwoording vs. Totale Externalisering (Blame-shifting/Projectie)
De Zelfreflectie-as: Totale Blindheid vs. Oppervlakkige/Strategische Reflectie vs. Fluctuering bij Crisi
De waarheid verdraaien as
De Destructiviteits-as: Goedaardig vs. Antagonistisch vs. Kwaadaardig (Sadistisch)
De Gewetens-as: Aanwezig vs. Volledig Gewetenloos
De transparantie as: omgeving mag alles weten vs. Omgeving mag niet alles weten
De ……-as: delen omgeving op in wie altijd loyaliteit laat zien wát de narcist ook doet vs.
De ja-knikkers-as???
Egocentricme
De Hoe-lang-blijf-ik-bij-je-as
De Gewetens-as: Aanwezig vs. Volledig Gewetenloos
De Destructiviteits-as: Goedaardig vs. Antagonistisch vs. Kwaadaardig (Sadistisch)
De cognitieve empathie-as: Afwezig vs. Cognitief (Berekend) vs. Selectief
De affectieve/emotionele empathie-as:
De Zelfreflectie-as: Totale Blindheid vs. Oppervlakkige/Strategische Reflectie vs. Fluctuering bij Crisis
De Transactionele as (Instrumenteel Denken): Wederkerig (Mild/Menselijk) vs. Extreem Transactioneel (Mens als Gebruiksvoorwerp)
De Bewustzijns-as: Volledig Onbewust vs. Berekend Bewust
De Stabiliteits-as: Rigide/Stabiel vs. Fluctuerend/Instabiel
De Relationele Hechtings-as: Parasitaire Verbinder vs. Jager (Hit-and-Run)
De Oorsprong-as: Klassiek vs. Compensatoir
De Functionele as: Hoogfunctionerend vs. Laagfunctionerend
De Volume-as: Overt vs. Covert
De Focus-as: Somatisch vs. Cerebraal vs. Communaal vs. Elitair
De Gewetens-as: Aanwezig vs. Volledig Gewetenloos
De Destructiviteits-as: Goedaardig vs. Antagonistisch vs. Kwaadaardig (Sadistisch)
De Empathie-as: Afwezig vs. Cognitief (Berekend) vs. Selectief
De Zelfreflectie-as: Totale Blindheid vs. Oppervlakkige/Strategische Reflectie vs. Fluctuering bij Crisis
De Bewustzijns-as: Volledig Onbewust vs. Berekend Bewust
De Stabiliteits-as: Rigide/Stabiel vs. Fluctuerend/Instabiel
De Relationele Hechtings-as: Parasitaire Verbinder vs. Jager (Hit-and-Run)
De Oorsprong-as: Klassiek vs. Compensatoir
De Functionele as: Hoogfunctionerend vs. Laagfunctionerend
De Volume-as: Overt vs. Covert
De Focus-as: Somatisch vs. Cerebraal vs. Communaal vs. Elitair
De Volume-as (Zichtbaarheid & Expressie): Overt vs. Covert
De Focus-as (De Bron van de Voeding): Somatisch vs. Cerebraal vs. Communaal vs. Elitair
De Functionele as (Mate van Functioneren & Aanpassing): Hoogfunctionerend vs. Laagfunctionerend
De Empathie-as (Emotioneel Inlevingsvermogen): Afwezig vs. Cognitief (Berekend) vs. Selectief
De Gewetens-as (Schuldgevoel & Wroeging): Aanwezig vs. Volledig Gewetenloos
De Destructiviteits-as (Schade & Intentioneel Gedrag): Goedaardig vs. Antagonistisch vs. Kwaadaardig (Sadistisch)
De Oorsprong-as (De Psychologische Motor): Klassiek vs. Compensatoir
De Bewustzijns-as (Inzicht & Intentie): Volledig Onbewust vs. Berekend Bewust
De Zelfreflectie-as (Kritisch Kijken naar Eigen Aandeel): Totale Blindheid vs. Oppervlakkige/Strategische Reflectie vs. Fluctuering bij Intense Crisis
De Relationele Hechtings-as (Consumptie van Relaties): Parasitaire Verbinder vs. Jager (Hit-and-Run)
De Stabiliteits-as (Emotionele Reactiviteit): Rigide/Stabiel vs. Fluctuerend/Instabiel
Om het hele spectrum te begrijpen, gebruiken experts in totaal vijf hoofdcriteria (assen) om de indeling te maken.
Dit is het complete overzicht van de factoren waarop de indeling wordt gebaseerd:
- De Volume-as: Zichtbaarheid & Expressie (Overt vs. Covert).
Dit is de as van hoe het gedrag naar buiten wordt gebracht.
Overt (Luid/Openlijk): Extravert, eisend, uiterlijk zelfverzekerd. Zij halen hun voeding door actief op de voorgrond te treden en de ruimte op te eisen.
Covert (Stil/Verborgen): Introvert, defensief, overgevoelig. Zij halen hun voeding subtieler, vaak via de slachtofferrol, zielig gedrag of passieve agressie.
- De Focus-as:
Waar willen ze de aandacht op vestigen
Somatisch: Het lichaam, fitness, uiterlijk, kleding, jeugdige uitstraling en seksuele prestaties.
Cerebraal: Intelligentie, academische titels, gelijk hebben in discussies, logica en expertise.
Communaal: Moraliteit, liefdadigheid, behulpzaamheid, het zijn van de 'perfecte ouder' of 'heilige weldoener'.
Elitair/Materieel: Status, geld, dure auto's, designerkleding en connecties met belangrijke mensen.
- De Functionele as
Mate van Functioneren & Aanpassing (mild tot ernstig)
Psychologen kijken naar hoeveel schade de structuur aanricht in het dagelijks leven van de persoon zelf en diens omgeving.
Hoogfunctionerend: Deze mensen zijn vaak zeer succesvol in de maatschappij (bijvoorbeeld als CEO, chirurg of politicus). Ze hebben hun narcisme gekanaliseerd in prestaties.
Laagfunctionerend: Zij kunnen door hun extreme achterdocht, woede-uitbarstingen en onvermogen om met kritiek om te gaan geen baan of relatie behouden.
- De empathie- en gewetens-as:
De mate van kwaadaardigheid (goedaardig versus kwaadaardig)
Dit bepaalt hoe destructief de tactieken zijn en of er sprake is van een geweten.
Goedaardig (benigne): zonder de actieve intentie om anderen emotioneel of fysiek kapot te maken, maar hier kan wel sprake van zijn.
Kwaadaardig (maligne): Dit type heeft psychopathische trekken. Ze ervaren een gebrek aan geweten en vertonen sadistische trekken, ze zijn gericht op iemand anders zien of horen lijden.
- De Oorsprong-as: De Psychologische Oorzaak (Klassiek vs. Compensatoir)
Dit kijkt naar de interne motor van het narcisme.
Klassiek (Primair): Mensen die van jongs af aan zijn opgevoed met het idee dat ze daadwerkelijk beter zijn dan de rest van de wereld (verwend/geprivilegieerd nest). Hun superioriteitsgevoel zit diep verankerd.
Compensatoir (Secundair): Een extreme overlevingsstrategie. De grandioze buitenkant is een dun schild dat een diep trauma, intense minderwaardigheidsgevoelens en een extreme innerlijke leegte moet maskeren.
- De Bewustzijns-as: Inzicht & Intentie
De grote vraag is altijd: Weten ze wat ze doen, of zijn ze blind voor hun eigen gedrag? Op deze as zien we twee uitersten:
Volledig Onbewust (De Automatische Piloot): Dit is de grootste groep. Hun psyche heeft in hun vroege jeugd een psychologisch overlevingsmechanisme ontwikkeld dat zo waterdicht is, dat ze oprecht geloven in hun eigen leugens, verdraaiingen en superioriteit. Als zij gaslighten of de schuld verleggen, liegt hun brein zo snel dat ze zelf geloven dat zij het slachtoffer zijn. Ze missen het vermogen tot zelfreflectie; de realiteit buigt in hun hoofd mee met hun emotionele behoefte van dat moment.
Berekend Bewust (De Strategist): Dit zie je vaker aan de antisociale en kwaadaardige (maligne) kant van het spectrum. Deze personen weten exact welke knoppen ze indrukken. Ze begrijpen de sociale regels en menselijke emoties heel goed (cognitieve empathie), maar gebruiken die kennis puur strategisch om te manipuleren. Ze plannen hun acties, isoleren slachtoffers bewust en genieten van de controle die dit hen oplevert.
- De Relationele Hechtings-as: Hoe ze relaties consumeren
Deze as deelt narcisten in op basis van de manier waarop ze mensen aan zich binden en weer afstoten:
De Parasitaire Verbinder: Dit type zoekt een langdurige gastheer of gastvrouw. Ze nestelen zich diep in iemands leven (huwelijk, gezamenlijk bedrijf) en zuigen langzaam de energie, status of financiën uit de ander. Ze verlaten de partner niet snel, omdat de stabiele bron van 'voeding' te comfortabel is.
De Jager / Verbruiker (Hit-and-Run): Dit type is geobsedeerd door de kick van de achtervolging. Ze zijn meesters in de beginfase (love bombing), maar zodra de partner volledig verliefd of afhankelijk is, verveelt dit type zich. Ze dumpen de ander ijskoud (discard) en hoppen direct over naar het volgende doelwit.
- De Stabiliteits-as: Emotionele Reactiviteit (Stabiel vs. Instabiel)
Deze as kijkt naar hoe snel de narcistische structuur wankelt bij tegenslag:
De Rigide/Stabiele Narcist: Dit type heeft een pantser van gewapend beton. Ze zijn emotioneel heel vlak, kil en laten zich zelden uit hun tent lokken. Zelfs bij extreme kritiek halen ze hun schouders op en kijken ze neerbuigend op je neer. Hun superioriteitsgevoel is rotsvast.
De Fluctuere/Instabiele Narcist (Overlap met borderline trekken): Dit type is een emotionele tijdbom. Het ene moment zijn ze intens grandioos, het volgende moment kelderen ze bij de kleinste afwijzing in een diepe depressie of een intense, explosieve woede-uitbarsting (narcissistic rage). Hun ego is extreem fragiel.
Omschrijving 1
- iemand die zichzelf belangrijker vindt dan anderen
- iemand die veel bevestiging nodig heeft om zich goed over zichzelf te voelen
- iemand die moeilijk naar het eigen aandeel in problemen kijkt
- iemand die weinig ruimte heeft voor de gevoelens en behoeften van anderen
Omschrijving 2
- iemand die verwacht dat anderen rekening houden met diens wensen
- iemand die kritiek snel als een persoonlijke aanval ervaart
- iemand die de schuld gemakkelijk bij anderen legt
- iemand die bewondering en waardering nodig heeft om de eigenwaarde overeind te houden
Omschrijving 3
- iemand die graag bijzonder, belangrijk of succesvol wordt gevonden
- iemand die verwacht dat anderen zich aanpassen
- iemand die moeilijk verantwoordelijkheid neemt wanneer het eigen gedrag anderen raakt
- iemand bij wie empathie gemakkelijk verdwijnt wanneer de eigen belangen worden geraakt
Omschrijving 4
- iemand die een groot gevoel van eigenbelang heeft
- iemand die sterk bezig is met hoe anderen naar hen kijken
- iemand die slecht verdraagt dat anderen grenzen stellen
- iemand die weinig oog kan hebben voor de gevolgen van het eigen gedrag voor anderen
Omschrijving 5
- iemand die bewondering en aandacht gebruikt om de eigenwaarde te ondersteunen
- iemand die zich snel gekrenkt voelt wanneer die bewondering wegvalt
- iemand die defensief reageert wanneer tekortkomingen worden benoemd
- iemand die relaties gemakkelijk bekijkt vanuit wat deze voor hen betekenen
Omschrijving 6
- iemand die vindt recht te hebben op een bijzondere behandeling
- iemand die verwacht dat anderen aan diens behoeften tegemoetkomen
- iemand die boos of gekrenkt kan reageren wanneer dat niet gebeurt
- iemand die moeilijk stilstaat bij de vraag wat de ander nodig heeft
Omschrijving 7
- iemand die graag bewonderd wordt
- iemand die graag gezien wordt als bijzonder, aantrekkelijk, slim of succesvol
- iemand die sterk reageert wanneer dat beeld wordt aangetast
- iemand die anderen nodig heeft om dat gewenste beeld van zichzelf te bevestigen
Omschrijving 8
- iemand die veel aandacht besteedt aan status, succes of aanzien
- iemand die zichzelf voortdurend met anderen kan vergelijken
- iemand die moeite heeft wanneer een ander meer aandacht of bewondering krijgt
- iemand die zichzelf groter kan maken door een ander kleiner te maken
Omschrijving 9
- iemand die graag controle houdt over mensen en situaties
- iemand die moeilijk verdraagt dat anderen hun eigen koers varen
- iemand die weerstand gemakkelijk als disrespect of tegenwerking ervaart
- iemand die verwacht dat anderen loyaal blijven aan diens kant
Omschrijving 10
- iemand die kritiek moeilijk kan verdragen
- iemand die zich snel aangevallen, vernederd of gekrenkt voelt
- iemand die de kritiekgever vervolgens als het probleem kan gaan zien
- iemand die het eigen zelfbeeld verdedigt in plaats van rustig naar de kritiek te kijken
Omschrijving 11
- iemand die een kwetsbare eigenwaarde achter zelfverzekerdheid kan verbergen
- iemand die bevestiging van buitenaf nodig heeft om die eigenwaarde te ondersteunen
- iemand die sterk reageert wanneer die bevestiging verdwijnt
- iemand die schaamte, onzekerheid of minderwaardigheid moeilijk verdraagt
Omschrijving 12
- iemand die graag bepaalt hoe anderen hen zien
- iemand die een beeld van succes, kracht of bijzonderheid wil neerzetten
- iemand die moeilijk verdraagt dat iemand door dat beeld heen kijkt
- iemand die informatie die niet bij dat beeld past kan ontkennen, verkleinen of afweren
Omschrijving 13
- iemand die moeite heeft met echte wederkerigheid in relaties
- iemand die vooral oog kan hebben voor wat een relatie voor hen oplevert
- iemand die veel van anderen verwacht en zelf minder teruggeeft
- iemand die de behoeften van de ander gemakkelijk ondergeschikt maakt aan de eigen behoeften
Omschrijving 14
- iemand die empathisch kan overkomen wanneer dat goed uitkomt
- iemand bij wie empathie minder beschikbaar wordt wanneer de eigen belangen worden bedreigd
- iemand die de gevoelens van een ander kan begrijpen zonder er werkelijk rekening mee te houden
- iemand die uiteindelijk gemakkelijk terugkeert naar de eigen behoeften en het eigen perspectief
Omschrijving 15
- iemand die moeilijk kan zeggen: ik zat fout
- iemand die moeilijk kan zeggen: ik heb jou pijn gedaan
- iemand die gemakkelijker uitlegt waarom het gedrag gerechtvaardigd was
- iemand die verantwoordelijkheid gemakkelijk verschuift naar de ander of de omstandigheden
Omschrijving 16
- iemand die zichzelf graag als de goede, redelijke of kundige persoon ziet
- iemand die informatie afweert die niet bij dat beeld past
- iemand die fouten kleiner kan maken om het eigen zelfbeeld te beschermen
- iemand die de fouten van anderen groter kan maken om de aandacht van zichzelf af te halen
Omschrijving 17
- iemand die verwacht dat anderen loyaal zijn
- iemand die tegenspraak gemakkelijk als gebrek aan loyaliteit ervaart
- iemand die wil dat anderen de eigen kant kiezen
- iemand die zelf minder loyaal kan worden wanneer iemand niet langer bevestiging, voordeel of status geeft
Omschrijving 18
- iemand die graag het middelpunt van de aandacht is
- iemand die merkt wanneer de aandacht naar iemand anders verschuift
- iemand die moeite kan hebben wanneer een ander meer bewondering krijgt
- iemand die probeert de aandacht, waardering of bijzondere positie terug te krijgen
Omschrijving 19
- iemand die afgunstig kan zijn op wat anderen hebben of bereiken
- iemand die moeite kan hebben met iemand die mooier, succesvoller of populairder wordt gevonden
- iemand die de prestaties van een ander kleiner kan maken
- iemand die de eigen positie tegenover die ander probeert te herstellen
Omschrijving 20
- iemand die regels gemakkelijker accepteert wanneer die in het eigen voordeel werken
- iemand die uitzonderingen voor zichzelf vanzelfsprekend kan vinden
- iemand die grenzen van anderen als lastig of onredelijk kan ervaren
- iemand die verwacht dat de omgeving meer rekening houdt met hen dan andersom
Omschrijving 21
- iemand die sterk bezig kan zijn met macht, invloed en positie
- iemand die graag bepaalt wat er gebeurt
- iemand die moeilijk verdraagt dat iemand niet meer onder diens invloed staat
- iemand die controleverlies als bedreigend kan ervaren
Omschrijving 22
- iemand die anderen kan idealiseren wanneer zij bewondering, status of bevestiging geven
- iemand die teleurgesteld kan raken wanneer diezelfde persoon niet meer aan de verwachtingen voldoet
- iemand die iemand vervolgens veel negatiever kan gaan bekijken
- iemand bij wie waardering voor een ander sterk kan veranderen wanneer de relatie niet meer geeft wat nodig is
Omschrijving 23
- iemand die de eigen werkelijkheid sterk vanuit het eigen perspectief bekijkt
- iemand die vooral ziet wat anderen hen hebben aangedaan
- iemand die het eigen aandeel gemakkelijker uit het verhaal laat verdwijnen
- iemand die zichzelf daardoor als benadeelde kan ervaren terwijl de ander door het gedrag is geraakt
Omschrijving 24
- iemand die schaamte en het gevoel niet goed genoeg te zijn moeilijk verdraagt
- iemand die dat kwetsbare gevoel kan beschermen met arrogantie, boosheid of superioriteit
- iemand die anderen kleiner kan maken wanneer het eigen zelfbeeld wordt bedreigd
- iemand die zich sterker probeert te voelen wanneer die zich vanbinnen klein voelt
Omschrijving 25
- iemand die bewondering, bevestiging en aandacht nodig kan hebben om de eigenwaarde te reguleren
- iemand die sterk kan reageren wanneer aandacht, status, schoonheid, succes of invloed verloren gaat
- iemand die dan boos, gekrenkt, onzeker of teruggetrokken kan reageren
- iemand die vervolgens nieuwe manieren kan zoeken om zich weer belangrijk, bijzonder of gewaardeerd te voelen
Deze we
- Identiteit via de ander: Heeft de reacties, bewondering of angst van de omgeving nodig om überhaupt een gevoel van eigenwaarde of identiteit te ervaren.
- De omgeving als spiegel: Een narcist kijkt niet naar binnen om te voelen wie hij is, maar naar de reacties van anderen. Als de omgeving applaudisseert, is de narcist 'geweldig'. Als de omgeving zwijgt of kritisch is, stort de identiteit direct in.
- Gedwongen rolverdeling: De omgeving wordt door de narcist gedwongen in een rol die zijn identiteit ondersteunt. Jij móét de mindere zijn, de bewonderaar, of de zondebok, zodat de narcist de superieure positie kan behouden.
bsite is bedoeld voor bewustwording, herkenning en kennisdeling.
I am meeting Kathleen Saxton. [music] I love these interviews because she is apsychotherapist. I'm excited. [music] And she really knows her stuff. We're going to deep dive into narcissism.[music] What is quite funny is that I'm already thinking, "Yo, I mean, what I do out here, all right,lads, every week, I love being me. Must be verging on some kind of narcissisticquality. Look at me, everybody. [laughter] Right. Stop flirting. Stop flirting.Loads of material for her to talk about. You're so hilarious. Hi. You look so pretty.Oh, bless you. I'm single. Could we just do street men instead? This is not a problem. We can look we can sort that out later. She specializesreally in narcissistic parents, [music] but she knows everything about narcissistic partners, work colleagues.We're going to deep dive into every single area. [music]Kathleen Saxton, I just want to welcome you to begin again. Thank you so much. So, you are you specialize innarcissism, um, a psychotherapist. That's right. And you often deal with people inmidlife who are kind of realizing that they have a narcissistic parent and helping them navigate that. Andobviously, um, I'd love to talk to you a bit about that. Um, but not only that,how narcissists can affect every walk of our life, our work lives, um, ourrelationships, our friendships. So, I'd like to kind of dip intoall of that, but I would like to kick off with Narcissistic Parents, of course.Um, this book came out last year. It did. It's a mega. I mean, so unbelievablyhelpful. Um because there are even kind of I love these diagrams. They are sobrilliant at helping helping you navigate these as well in particular.Amazing. Okay, listen. I was just wondering, you know, the subscribe button down there.Could you just press it? That would be so helpful. It doesn't cost anything, completely free, but it really, reallyhelps us bring you fab guests. We really want to do that.
What Is A Narcissist?
So what constitutes let's kick off with what constitutes a narcissist? What is anarcissist? So there's two ways of looking at it I think. One is the pure diagnostic. So it is a diagnosible personality disordercluster B sits alongside other things. It was first kind of noticed and named in 1980 and it's it's listed in the DSM5which we use 1980. 1980 relatively recently. That feels so what that's justcompletely blown my mind. I was convinced you're going to say 18. No. What?I know. Very very recently. I think we've just learned to understand a lot more about personality disorders per seover the last few years and we've done more research in it and research has been funded. I think lots of research just wasn't funded. So we might havefelt that something was a bit a miss with someone but we couldn't really nail what it was. So since 1980, so there'slots of statistics. Um we talk about between 0.5 and 6.2% 2% that's quite abig delta between the two of people that are actually diagnosable. If they went to a psychiatrist, they would bediagnosed with a personality disorder. But narcissism is a spectrum. I think we've all got a little few traitsknocking about. I think that's why we were all quite interested as humans in it. And you've got those that have moreof a personality type in the middle and you've got those that are disordered. So we think about it on a spectrum.Okay. So this is interesting because it's not a switch. It's a spectrum. I feel like if I'm honest, yeah, what I dowould require a certain level of narcissism. Like I love what I do. Ieven would just go as far as to say, you know, I like I've done it for so long. I feel like I know what I'm doing. Yes.And I keep thinking, is that narcissism? But it could be narcissism, but on aspectrum. It could be on a spectrum. But it's absolutely fine for us to be really good at what we do and to kind of know thatwe're actually quite good at what we do. We can tell the difference. And the way that I then look at it out of thediagnostic frame is it's not about a diagnosis necessarily. It's how the people make you feel andyour central nervous system feel when you're with them. Because we can be great at something,but is it at someone else's expense? Right? Narcissists will want to feel good in whatever form that matters tothem. And you are an object to them. You're not a person. There's no relationship between them. They mightperformatively act as though you're in a relationship or a friendship or a but actually you're just an object for themto get what they need. And what they need is narcissistic supply, which is either apparation or sympathy orsomething where you're going to be drawn towards them. So, we've got the narcissistic criteria, but lots ofnarcissists will never go anywhere near a psychiatrist. So we'll never really know which can be difficult when youhaven't got someone that's been diagnosed. But for me it's about how do you start to feel when you are in theircompany. That's interesting. So narcissists don't want to go to a psychiatrist.No. Because the misconception is that narcissists love themselves and think they're fabulous. It's the completeopposite. They are absolutely splintered, fractured. They think so little of themselves. They've had to create amask, a persona, and a defense that says, "Aren't I great?" Because if you could actually see behind this, youwould realize that I'm nothing and nobody. And they cannot bear that. So, it's a defense. We call it uh adeficiency defense that they know that they're deficient in so many ways and they probably felt that since they werea kid. So, they create this mask that they wear and that's the mask that we have to deal with all the time. Andwould a psychotherapist then see that quite quickly? Yeah, I personally because I've studiedit so much. Most psychotherapists would get a feel for it. Most most people untrained would get a feel thatsomething off. Well, I think now we're almost all kind of looking sometimes or we're withsomebody or we've been with somebody and you think, "Oh, I think something was off there."But I I'm quite interested and I will we will move on in a minute. But when youmeet somebody and you think, "Oh, I think you have narcissistic traits here."Yeah. It it would be quite hard to tell someone that they had narcissistictraits because we paint it so badly like it's umit's become a commal garden insult, isn't it? Yes. Yeah. You're a narcissist. Yeah. Everyone's a narcissist. Yes. So,we're throwing it out like sweeties, but actually, if you're really in the company of someone who is disordered,it's a very, very different thing. And the damage that they can do that can last a lifetime is very, very serious.So, to some degree, although as a therapist, I'm glad that we are talking about it more in general, I'm alsoconcerned that those that have really suffered, if you had a parent, a partner, a boss, a friend, then actuallyare you really getting the attention and the care and the healing that you need? because everyone's a little bit like,well, everyone's a narcissist, sort of get over it type of thing. So, it's tricky. We have to really think aboutwhat we're saying. I think we've had this in the last year with OCD. We've all sort OCD and we've been pulled backa bit on it, which is if you've really got OCD, it's a very difficult condition to have to navigate through your life.So, I think narcissism will begin to tip back into the center where we realize that really you shouldn't be callingpeople that unless they've had a diagnosis or indeed you feel some way qualified to to make that diagnosis withthem. But traits is another thing. We can all have a few little narcissistic traits and we can be aware of them andwe can manage them. But if we're disordered, it's a completely different thing. And I mean, the likelihood ofsomebody who's disordered going to get help from a psychotherapist is so you're almost saying, "I want you totake my mask off." Well, they wouldn't want you to take the mask off in a million years, so they're not going to do that. They're going to deflect it insome other way. Um, those that might be in coup's therapy, for example, that are desperately trying to save arelationship may in the final knockings of that therapy think I better comeforward and say, "Maybe there is something wrong with me." But often again it's performative within a couple of weeks that have slipped straight backto their way that they were before. So it's the only mental health condition Deina where there is no medical cure andthere's no psychotherrapeutic cure if someone has a disorder. And when I was studying it and I was told that by theprofessors I I couldn't I'm a woman built on hope. My belief is everything's fixable. Everything's possible. We'llfind a way. It's there is no cure. And I find that so unpalatable. But that isthe current research that we are told there is no cure if you have the disorder.That's slightly blown my mind. Yeah. I always thought there was some way a path to redemption, but no.No. Lots of other personality disorders absolutely, but not NPD. Wow.I mean, I I I like this idea of that you you'll know because you'll know how youfeel. And I I um I've been thinking a lot recently about my kids and theirpartners. And um the question isn't do you love them?It's um how do they make you feel about yourself and do you love yourself when you'rewith them? Yes. Do they lift you? Do they make you feel better? Do they want make you want to be better? It's all of those things. So we
Identifying A Narcissist
say this there's four Ds that I talk about when I might feel that I might be in the company of a narcissist. So wetalk about dazzle. Do they dazzle you quite early on? You're sort of then theydraw you in. So you're drawn into them. Then they start devaluing you and then they discard you.So that's the pattern that I'm looking for when I'm hearing stories about or I'm hearing them talk about theirrelationships. I'm hearing some of some of what's going on. pattern of something that happens.I mean, when we're talking about a parent, um, obviously you you've you were born um either from them or theywere your dad um throughout your life. So, they're either a mom or a dadand so unless you were adopted um you would have known them your entirelife. Yes. So, how would you start realizing or start seeing the pattern of um anarcissistic parent? What would that look like? So, as the child of one and and we'll get at some point into the spectrum ofthere's lots of different flavors of them. There's a some sense that there's a performiveness about what you need to befor them. Are they showing you off because you're clever, pretty, good atbadminton, doesn't matter what it is, but is there something about you being talked about by them because ofsomething brilliant that you are doing? So, are they showing you off? Are they living vicariously through you? If theywanted to be a great ballerina or they wanted to be a barristister and they're pushing you in that direction, are they getting their own dreams lived throughyou in some way? The opposite of that is we talk about scapegoating as well. the things theydon't like about themselves, maybe they've got a temper or they're untidy or something, they start projecting thatonto one of the children. So, the child has to hold all the negative things that they can't hold about themselves becausethe narcissist can't withstand that back to deficiency. So, they give it to one of the children. So, often in thesefamilies, we'll find that if there are a number of children, they're all given slightly different roles in the family.Yes. And some people will say to me, "Well, it's all right for my brother or sister because they were the goldenchild." Trust me, it doesn't matter what position you're in. It's miserable because you aren't allowed to beyourself. I call it identity theft in the book. And I think narcissism in general, I I say it's like a thousandtiny identity thefts. slowly slowly slowly they take away the truth of whoyou are and start to tell you who they need you to be instead in whatever guys they might be in. So as a parent, theyare stealing your true self, your identity. And it can take us a lifetime to realize that and then think, how thehell do I get back to the person that I was meant to be when I came into thisworld? And that's often the work we do, particularly if someone in midlife, to your question, has found that maybe thatthey've had a narcissistic parent. I mean, I I can't help but think about the kind of 20 and 30 year olds as well.you know the the just starting on your journey of life but being robbed of your identity.It's very hard for them because it's harder to identify. Is there anythingthat a 20 or 30 year old could do to kind of think oh hang on a minute I'mseeing a pattern here that doesn't feel or are they as well as we were talkingabout how do they make you feel? Should you be looking at yourself? There's definitely something about howdo they make you feel? And of course it's often when we leave home to go to college, university, move up to whereveryou want to live with your mates. You begin to separate. So you know, individuation is very important for anychild. So we tend to start doing that around 14, 15. So we start to say, actually, you know, I don't want cheesewith my baked beans. Thanks very much. We start to decide what we want rather than what we've been given. But of course, when we leave home and westart to spend time in other people's families, we start to notice what other family sort of systems are like. westart to notice what other people's parents are like when they come to visit whatever it may be. that gives uscontext for right this isn't this isn't like my family orI notice how they are with their mom or their dad and it's really relaxed and easy and so we begin to get a sense ofwhat that looks like and that's the first time that often we begin to realize that maybe something is notquite right at home and then we realize maybe it never has been. But it alsothen brings into question the other parent which we call the enabler who mayhave felt they were trapped and could do nothing about it. But often in therapy someone comes with the angst of thenarcissistic parent. They want to fix and heal whatever's going on there. But then they start to wonder why didn't mymom or my dad step in or grandparent step in and stop some of this happening.So it can be we have to unravel it a bit before we can build it back in again. And so sometimes people come thinkingthey're just going to talk about one parent or one boss or one partner, but it starts to unravel the people thatwere around them because narcissists can't anybody protect me. Absolutely. Oh god, it's quite sad that isn't it?The layering. Yeah. And sometimes that needs a discussion with the other parent whomight be able to say, "Listen, I was aware, but I had a choice. What was the best way I could protect you?" And maybeit was to stay in the system rather than to leave. But we see it again in in offices as well. Peoplesee so Oh, in parenting. In parenting. Yeah. Somebody might decide to stay to protectthe children. Yes. They might stay in the marriage even though they know their partner's a narcissist to protect the children, butthe child might not feel fully protected because they'd rather the parent have just left left and taken them with them. Right? So there's lots of sort oftimings and context to think about when we're beginning to heal from these people. Wow. Yeah.Boardrooms. You'll be aware that the boss there's a problem, but nobody wants to lose their job. Everyone's got theirmortgages banking on it. So everyone becomes aware, but nobody wants tobecome the whistleblower because they tend to get outcast. Same with a child in a family. Same witha friend in a friendship group. If you're the one that finally raises the flag and says something's not right with this, it canunravel a whole system and that's why it's so difficult. Is there a gender that is more prone to
The Different Types Of Narcissists
narcissism? So for many, many years people said it was much more male orientated. In fact,the statistics were cleanly 75 25. It's a load of rubbish. It's 50/50. Oh, is it? That's interesting.Yes. It's just that men and women without, you know, it's it's tricky not being stereotypical, but tend to displayit slightly differently, right? So, you'll find slightly more grandiose flavor of narcissism with men. So,what does that look like? Pompous, arrogant, takes all the oxygen in the room, makes all the conversationsabout them. The female side might be slightly more vulnerable, covert. So thinking about the nurturing side. Sovery giving, very sacrificing, often a victim, have got a sad backstory that they want to tell everybody so that youdraw, you're drawn in again by you're dazzled or drawn in by the story or you could be dazzled and drawn in bysomeone's confidence or sort of charisma and those kinds of things. This is so interesting because I don'tthink I've ever heard the word vulnerable um associated with a narcissist. That's fascinating.that that actually it's your kind of victimhood and your big backstory thatthat draws brings the attention. Yeah. Oh wow. They call it narcissistic supply. So they need supply in whatever form theycan get it. And in sort of classic narcissism it was the attention seeking but you can get just as much attentionby being what we call covert or vulnerable narcissist. It's by doing it a different way talking aboutself-sacrifice. And um you can get grandiose I'm sure women absolutelybut quite a few women so differently. Okay. And we talk about malignant narcissists and social narcissist.Oh wait I want to know all of that. Tell no tell me about that now. So let's say we think about communalnarcissists and you might get this in a friendship group. So these are people that are organizing they're organizingthe girls trip. They're organizing the golfing trip. They're organizing all the communal things that we do the PTA allthe stuff that we have to do. They'll be organizing that and everyone's very grateful and thankful for them. Trustme, there's lots of people that do that and they do it with the best heart ever and we love them for it. But if later down the line they start tosay, "Well, because I did all of that, I really need you to do this for me. I need to call in a favor because I didall of that. You remember I did all of that and now I'd like you to do this for me." It's not without cost in form. So, wehave that. We have those that those that work a lot for lots of big charities buttell everyone but for the wrong reasons not to raise more money for the charity to say aren't I amazing that I do allthis for this charity I'm that's me that did that so it's like virtue signaling going lookat me I'm such a saint yeah virtue signaling on acid yes uh and so and there is so there's a hugedifference you know what's the real reason they're doing it and if we look a little bit closer we can tend to startto feel when something's a bit off and again you'll feel it. You'll feel the way they're talking about itthat, you know, they're not promoting the charity. They're promoting what they did for the charity. It's very subtlebut interesting difference. So, we have those types as well. But again, in friendship groups, there'll be all sortsof different types that will be coming forward. So, those that have always got a crisis, 100% or they're always the onethat's got the worst thing that's going on for them. So, you might have broken up with your boyfriend. You might have a dog that's very unwell. They'llimmediately trump you with the bigger story that they had about exactly the same things. Again, they just find a wayof taking all the attention and making it bigger and better so that they feel that they're top dog in some form.Yes. Yeah. Sorry, I was laughing cuz um my husband died. That's not funny. But my husbanddied once and he was telling somebody and he died for three and a half minutes. Wow. And um the guy went, "Oh, well, I diedfor nine. I'll take your three and a half and I'll raise you. I [laughter] was like, "Oh, wow." Like,at least just go, "Oh, that sounds interesting. How was that story?" Yeah. I had the similar experiencehappened to me. It wasn't about that. It was like, "I died for longer than you." Yeah. [laughter] Again, the stories pulled round to themin some form. Yeah. I mean it is interesting I think how much more attunedum we are I think to sensingsomeone's energy and um their their focus of attention. But something I was really interested inwas when you were talking about it when somebody's trying to steal the thunderor the attention or steer something towards them. But when you were talking about covertand how somebody can seem really quite nice um whenthey're not around you, but then when they're with you, it's about please feel sorry for me.Yeah. I'm having this terrible time. It's a very kind of um it's hugely manipulativeand also really confusing if you are the partner or the child. You know, it's the perfect word to be in. Theconfusion is one of the big things that you would start to feel if you're in the company of this person. Something's offand often we're left confused also by their behavior. So, particularly if they're a partneractually um there'll be something whereby in public they couldn't be lovely. You know, you go for dinner withthem and their friends and they hold your hand under the table and they're super attentive and gorgeous and lovely. the minute you're in the taxi home, theminute the front door shuts, shut down, silent treatment, cold and awful, belittles you for what you said overdinner. So, it's like a jackal and hide that you're dealing with. And this sort of we call it intermittent reinforcement, you know, the slotmachine analogy, which is because when they're lovely, they're gorgeous. We keep trying to get themback to that state. So, we hold on in there. Yeah. even when we've seen the veryworst of them and think actually if they were that if they were like that all the time I'd leave you in a heartbeat because you're dreadful but we have thisloveliness that they show in public and so we almost dread going home and the same for parents because when we get ifwe get in the door of the house everything changes and it's very very confusing. Yes.
How Narcissistic Parents Affect Their Children
Yeah. is it's quite interesting because as well I suppose as talking about whois a narcissist, there's a little piece of me now that's questioning whether my mother was anarcissist from what you're saying. I think she was just an alcoholic.Okay. And um alcoholics are selfish. They're very selffeels like something a bit different that um and that this is quite a nicemaybe a reassurance that maybe not. Why did you think maybe what had led you to think that or to be curious about it forher about her being a narcissist? I think because she was um like a bitlike me, a peacock but an extreme peacock. It was um walking down the street. I've talked about this before,but with a with a long fake fur coat on and flashing people, she was naked, but she's with me and I was 11, you know.Um, or putting me in kind of danger or taking me to a nightclub when I was 13and then going to school weed and leaving me on my own in the DJ booth.Um, where but and then she's like, "You're fine. I need to go and do this." Like, it's just thinking about herself.But I wonder whether that is just an absolutely chaotic alcoholicchaotic and the selfishness of the addiction she was in the addiction. Yeah. Yeah. Because I she was totally self-absorbedand never was interested. I mean she did get she did get angry with me if I triedto impress her. I I just wanted her to be proud of me really. That's what I wasconstantly seeking. Yeah. What happened when you challenged her in life? I would never challengeher. Ah, okay. I was terrified. I mean, she'd go mental because feedback or challenge for anarcissist is very, very difficult because for them, it's the it's the equivalent of you picking at the mask.Yeah. And they're thinking you stay away from maybe she was a bit So, there could be something that might give youon the spectrum somewhere. Yeah. Yeah. Because I I would I would never I wouldnever even try and approach her cuz she'd just go absolute apeshit. We werealways just trying to keep her keep the peace and keep it of course. But what happens and where do you put all those feelings if you weren't ableto find a place to put them as a kid? It's tough. Well, I was just very lucky cuz I only spent my school holidays with her. Butmy sister Yes. who's over there. Yeah. Um she was with her all the timeand she had a very very difficult life and she protected me from quite a lotwhen I was over there. So I I when she came over here but what was interestingI thought you were talking about kids not knowing their identity my sister lost her identity.Yeah I think but is the chronic lying something attached to anything. Oh is itis it attached to that? Yeah it was partly attached to that which is if if we think about my sister was a compulsive liar but weused to laugh about it in the end cuz I'd just go is that a porky pie and she'd go yeah it is. Yeah. I mean we it was just part ofour this is loss of identity again and wanting to be accepted. So we talk about it's Donald Winnott's theory who's themost amazing you know he was the most amazing uh psychiatrist and psychotherapist. If we're born a trueself so we come into the world as a tiny baby and nothing's happened to us and whatever spirit pilot light we have isours to own. But very quickly we realize that we need to you know we're keeping the peace with mom. We're worrying aboutwhat's going to kick off etc. We start adapting. So we have an adapted self that we we know we're in it a lot of thetime if we've got difficult parents. It then can move out to false self. We completely start lying about what weare, who we are, what we've done in order again to be accepted in some form. That's exactly what she did.Yeah. And the very worst is also idealized self. We think I must I I mustbe idilic in order to be accepted and loved. But if your sister got caught in false, which would have not been herfault because it's the way she survived. Yeah. Yeah, it was I knew it was a survival. Yeah. But what we say is we're quite along way from home. And so if we can find a way to bringourselves back to home, that's the therapeutic work that I do with my clients. Yeah.Can I just say what a lovely thing to be able to do. Yeah.This idea to be able to take someone home. It is the greatest privilege. Oh, and towatch someone grow in that way and thinking back to mysister what that would have donefor her whole life, you know, going forwards. I mean, life-changing, right? You mustknow. How hard is it to kind of untrainsomeone who has like when you're talking about this journey going from someone who'sliterally had to change themselves to survive a narcissist, how kind of long are we? I mean, I know it's a bit hardfor you to say cuz everybody's different. Everyone's different, but I I genuinely think it can take about 18 months ofconcentrated work because we say that when a child doesn't feel loved, they don't stop loving their parent, theystop loving themselves. Oh, so I've got to work with them on that to start with. We also quite naturally tendto defend our parents even though we know I did that of course there are clearly things that aren't right but our natural instinct iswe've only got probably one or two or maybe three of the step or blended but so therefore we tend to defend theminitially or we'll say look other people have had it much worse than me because let's say that parent hasn't physicallybeen violent or sexually being difficult or abusive then we kind of feel psychologically youknow should I be complaining at all so there's all sorts of things that People will say initially as defense mechanismsand it's it's really clever that as a kid you've come up with that. But over time in therapy we begin toslowly just peel it back to the point where they can get a little bit more comfortable with accepting it wasn'tokay. They did that. I mean what a wonderful realization torealize that you were wronged. Yes. As a person. Yes. And people will often say, "Yes,but my mom or my dad had a difficult upbringing and they might have done or they were in the grip of addiction."Yes, absolutely. But what we say is it might explain it, but it doesn't excuseit. Yes, there's a difference there. Wow. And so that's also the work gentlyhelping someone come to terms with that because then what does that also mean for them? If their parent is alive ortheir parent has passed, what does that mean and what do they want to do with it? What I can't do is sort of openPandora's box and show them and then kind of leave it there. You're leaving them right in the middle of that pain.So that's why the work takes some time because we need to be very gentle with these inner children if you like to helpthem begin to slowly come to terms with it and accept that that is what happenedand then where can I find the compassion for myself that I went through that as a kid if that was the story that thisperson's had in front of me. Same for someone's been married for 20 years to someone, had children with someone who'sa narcissist, has worked for someone for 20 years. Yes. Beginning to actually accept whatI've observed, what I felt, what I've seen, what I know. It's true. I'm actually dealing with someone that'slike that. What the hell do I do with it? Yes. Yeah. I mean, I think um when you've been inan unhealthy relationship, I guess, of any sort with anyone Yeah. getting to a point where you can giveyourself a little hug and go, "Oh, cool. That was a lot, wasn't it?" Like,"Well done you." I mean, what a what a beautiful place to get to because Ithink when you're in it, I mean, it must beso mad. I do. God, Kathleen, it's justlike quite difficult because there's so much I want to talk to you about and I'm trying to navigate which kind of avenueI want to go down. I think let's let's park parents for a moment because I'd like to go to relationships
What Is Gaslighting?
where um I want to talk about the word cuz the word gaslighting just came to my head. Iwas sort of thinking how mad you go when you you know you you must be like in this relationship and just thinkingwhat is going on? I just feel I don't know which way I'm going. Andthe word gaslighting I feel like gets banded about a lot all over the place. But what does it really mean?What it really means is the person you are in in most senses sound of mind.Yeah, you're as much as we can. Who knows? We say in therapy we call them an apparently normal person. I thinkapparently is the apparently. Great. Great. So we observe something, someone hurtsus, injures us, lets us down in a partnership, and we challenge them elegantly, gently, and say, "Look, thatactually really hurt me when you did that." And they will say, "I don't know what you're talking about. I I never didthat. You're imagining that or it wasn't as bad as that. You're just, you know, you're being a bit over the top." Isometimes wonder if you're a little bit unhinged. I wonder if actually, oh god, you're making me feel uncomfortable like the way you're sayingit, but that's what happens. So, there's a truth that the narcissist cannot withstand because that would again knockon the mask for them. So, they've got to very quickly deflect it to you. You've got to be the one that is in some waynot getting it. You've misunderstood. You've got it wrong. That's gaslighting. An actual factual thing, feeling that'shappening, happened, situation that's going on, and they will tell you that black is white and white is black. Andyou're sitting thinking, "I'm sure it's not. I'm sure it's not. Really sure it's not. but I want thisrelationship to work. So maybe I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe I got it a bit wrong. Maybe I'm being abit over the top. Maybe I'm a bit anxious about this. So we begin to negotiate with ourselves. So then westart to gaslight ourselves because is that a thing? Yeah. We begin to wonder. Yes.So you start accepting untruths about yourself even when you know their untruth. Yes.It's the chipping away. So if you're in a long relationship with someone, they start it and it go a bit more and a bitmore. Before you know it, you have dismantled your own sense of self with yourself in order to try and keep thisrelationship alive because they might say, "If you really think that about me, then I should probably leave." So thenthe the relationship's in jeopardy. It's not a kind of we've had a disagreement, let's see how it is tomorrow. Can wefind a way to make up or talk it through? They'll go straight to abandonment if they think that's thething that's going to trigger you up. So, they'll threaten the entire relationship because you said,"Actually, it hurt me when you didn't turn up to my play or you um didn'tsupport me with my parent at the weekend or you um ridiculed me in front of your friends at dinner last night."They cannot take any level of criticism or feedback. So, they'll go straight for the jugular. But, it will start with the gaslighting. We've got this lovelysaying in therapy which is if it's hysterical, it's historical. If it really gets you, if that reallywinds you up about something, the chances are it's touching on something from your historical past.Wait, and we can all learn from that. Of course. Like if I overreact something, we've all got a bit of a thing aboutsomething. It's Would I be right in saying it's a trigger? Is that a trigger? Trigger. Yeah. Yeah. Do you like the word trigger?I think it's overused. Again, I think it's overus. Everyone's triggered of everything. That's why I asked you. It's like peopleare overt triggered. Yes. Stop being triggered. It's not a trigger. Yeah. That's why I asked if that was a triggerbecause I think I think you're right. I think what happens is we all get a word into our vocabulary. It was a bit likegaslighting. You know, when somebody goes, "You gas lit me." And you think, "I don't think I did. I just said what I felt."Yeah. That's what I mean. Um gaslighting is again, it's about intention.If their intention is to get get away with the thing you're accusing them of, that's gaslighting. Ah, sometimes wemisunderstand. So, it's about what's what's their intent there. If their intent is, yeah, you've caught me onthis and I don't want to admit to it. I'm going to gaslight you. It's about intent.
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Why Some People Are Attracted To Narcissists
thing around narcissistic um relationships is that you were sayingsometimes if you've had a narcissistic parent, not all the time, but sometimes if you've had a narcissistic parent, itcan lead you to find um a narcissist attractive. Why is that?So, we say in our upbringing, even if it's been difficult and hairy, it's familiar.Yeah. And we mix familiarity with safety. So something feels familiar, wetranslate that in our brain as it being safe. It's not. It's must is probably very very unsafe, but it's very veryfamiliar. And it's why sometimes people with domestic abuse find another partner. Sometimes if we've grown upwith an alcoholic parent, we have a temptation to become because it's familiar. We know this pattern. We feelcomfortable in it because it feels safe. It's the complete opposite of safe. M when I work with people that have eatingdisorders and things like that again the eating disorder feels very safe to them safe eating restricted eating because itfeels familiar. So we have to start identifying for us is it really safe? What's the interrogation of that thoughtor is it simply familiar? So when we have a narcissistic parent who might be quite controlling of us in some form,do we find ourselves attracted to slightly controlling people because it's completely unconscious butunconsciously oh I met them I met them and I had two dinners and do you know what I felt like I've known them my whole life. When someone says to I metthem my whole life or I I've met them I had three dates you know I think I'm going to marry them. I'm literally likestop let's just check here. Is there something in the past that wasn't good?Wait. So let's I want to go over that. So interesting. So you meet somebody andyou feel an instant connection, but if it goes too fast, that is a redflag. For me as a therapist, it's a red flag because I'm wondering what is it you're really connecting tobecause when we first meet someone, we completely we can't help ourselves. It's completely unconscious. We project ontoeach other. So you and I have never met before. So, I would have had a load of projections about you before I turned uptoday. And you might have read a bit of my book or heard something from the producers and thought, I think this iswhat I'm going to think about, Kathleen. It's only when we spend time together that we begin to both dismiss some ofthose projections andor find new truths about someone because it's a lived experience that we're having.Yes. So, in date one, date two, date three, we're pretty much dating our projections,right? It's not until something goes a little bit ary or wrong. Like if I spilled my drink over me right now,you'd get to see you get a quick flustered part of me and you'd see a little bit of Do you know what I was just imaginingthen? What's that? I was like imagining what would happen cuz I see you as like someone who reallyknows their sort of um psychology psychiatrist stuff.And it would be really funny if you spilled your drink and then went absolutely apeshit through a propertantrum and stormed off. and I'll be like, "Who was that?" You know, that isYeah, it is. I always say to um people that are friends of mine orwhatever, like, "Have you had a row yet?" Exactly. Like, how not a row, but what we were just saying when I say I'm saying what Ineed and someone's been either brilliant back. Yeah. Or gaslighty back.That's what you need to see. That's when you first start to see. Yeah. Is first. So, so of course we we notice all the usual stuff, you know,how are they with waitresses and waiters and we we notice some behaviors. I think it's very telling. Um there's so manythings I think on a first date. I'm just beginning Can you give me a few of them? Give me a few of them. So, we'll notice, you know, do do theybook it? Do they book who who's the who's driving? Who's the driving force? Um if you go to the bathroom, how dothey wait for you or not wait for you? How how are they with the people they're ordering food from? Um, do they observewhat you're deciding to eat and then have a conversation about that in some form? Might they ask you how long haveyou got, you know, how you getting home? They might check and let me know when you've got home safely or not, as thecase may be. And everybody will want different sorts of things depending on how we're built. But we'll notice someof these elements, but what we'll notice on dates six, seven, and eight is are they keeping it up, right?Where's the consistency? Oh, okay. Sorry. This is so interesting because on a first date, you would kindof go, "Oh, they're this person." Yeah. But actually, best behavior, projection. Yes. Yes.Okay. It's all about consistency. So, narcissists, Yeah. never consistent.On best behavior though, when you first meet dates with narcissists, I know I lived it and recovered it.Just delicious. Gorgeous, delicious. Everything you think you've ever wantedand looked at. They'll often ask you what you're looking for and you'll happily tell them and then they'll reflect it all back to you and youthink, "This is amazing. They're reading the books I'm reading. They love the same film directors. They like the samemusic. All of you're thinking this this is it." Like I've this is it. I've won the jackpot. But you wait till date 6 78 9 10. See what's going what's happening then? Dismissive. Starting to devalue thisdevalue and discard. you know, sort of putting down what you do for a living maybe and questioning, isn't therapyjust a load of old hocus pocus? They might well believe that. Some people do, but they'd be quite happy to startchipping away. Whereas in date one or two, oh my god, amazing that you're a psychotherapist. Seven and eight, hocuspocus. But I think that's interesting with language because you could um disagreewith somebody about what they do in a way that is agreeable. Yes, of course. Um Yeah. you know, like we were saying,um, like what do you what's your intention? Yeah.With what you're saying? If you're like, "Oh, well, it's interesting because I'd never really thought of it like that. Ithought, you know, if someone there's a way of saying it, if they're teasing you that again, we feel the intent behind it and we feelthe energy that's behind it. What is it they're really trying to do when they're saying that?" And sometimes I will say,"What did you mean by that?" and see where they go with it. So again, if we ask the right questions,I think the better educated we are actually in dating, there's some brilliant critical questions that we canask that I think unear things quite quickly. Yeah. Yeah. Go. Yeah. So I, you know, it's one of the famous questions whichis what's too serious for me to joke about? Oh, I mean Okay, mega.What would be your answer? Mine? Yeah, I would sayrace. Yes, I would say um harm to children.Mhm. Those would be my two big ones, I think.Yeah. And then you'd ask someone, "Tell me more about why the tell me more question is always beautiful because if someone'sbeing performative, if the narcissist is being performative, there'll be very little depth to the answer." Uh uh. God,can I just tell you, Kathleen, you are the gift that keeps on giving. I might be, but I'm single. [laughter]But I'm telling you, after this podcast, trust me, I'm a presenter. I'm going tofind you someone. Perfect. Can't wait. Yes. So, just don't you worry about that. Excellent.But you to me are the gift that keeps on giving because you you keep sayingthings. You keep kind of adding a bit where I go, "Oh, that has slightly blown my mind."Yeah. This consistency thing on on general narcissism will really helpnavigate people, by the way. Wow. Yeah. Because, you know, this is the hot, cold, jackal, and hide.It's the inconsistent, you know, of them. And this, you know, this sort of um intermittent reinforcement,intermittent absolutely lovely to you. And you think, "This is it. I finallygot there. We're home and dry and then suddenly not again. It's the pushpull. You'll feel the push pull a lot with anyflavor of narcissist. No matter what relationship you are in with them, you'll feel it. They don't know they're doing it.They absolutely know they're doing it. Okay. And it work. They're doing it because it works. It works. They have to do it to toprotect and defend this fractured piece of the behind. Right. So, this this defense mask has got to be foolproof atall times. If they think that you're on to them, and certainly my lived experience was,
Why It’s So Hard To Leave A Narcissistic Relationship
once they think you're on to them, you you've got to be annihilated because you are at danger of pulling that mask rightoff. How long were you in? Six years. Wow. Engaged.Wait, can I do you mind me asking you? You can ask me anything. Okay. So, how old I mean, are we talking thelast six years? No. Like, how long ago was it? It was It It ended 3 years ago. So, itwas 6 years. So, You were an adult. I was an adult woman. I was a mother. I was a therapist by then, which made itworse. Which made it worse to me. Why? Well, I mean, what I want to ask you is like howhow, why, and Yeah. All of it. Yeah. So, I think being a therapist and being in a narcissist relationship wasalmost the double bind that nearly took my life in a way because I was an adult.I was a mother and I was a woman of the world. I was a chief executive of a business. I I got myself sorted. I wassorted and I thought I'd found the perfect person. Amazing. Early signs were thereand I'm a therapist. So, I think there's something going on with this person. I can feel it. I can pick it quitequickly. It was, you know, within the first 3 to six months, some odd behaviors and thingsand I thought, I'm a therapist. I'm older an older woman, so there's notloads of them out there. I need to make it work. That was my wound. I think I could help make it work. That's myrescuer. Maybe a bit of ego. And I'm a therapist, so I'm I'm used to working with personality disorders. So, if Ireally really work hard at this, if I study him and I I really try and understand what's going on for him andmaybe about his childhood and maybe he's had a difficult life and maybe maybe maybe I can make it work.And so I stayed way too long at the fair because I was a therapist.this this sense of hope. Yeah. And I learned my lesson the hard way. I'd never do it again. And there wasanother final part to that, Deina, which is the shame. The shame of being agrown-up woman who runs a business, who's brought her children up that, you know, they're fantastic and gorgeousand and I'm a therapist and I'm in an abusive relationship and I can't tellanyone because I'm so ashamed cuz I should know better. Complete trap. And in a way a win forthem. Oh, perfect for them. I couldn't have been more attentive to what they wantedand what they needed and tried to correct all the gaslighting and tried to get them to read books and watch filmsand come to therapy and all sorts of things and they were safe in the knowledge that you couldn't tell anyone.Couldn't tell anyone. And you know, their mask wasn't going to come off. That was super glued on. And I dideverything I could to dissolve that and say, "I know who you are behind it." and it's okay. I'll love you anyway.Actually, I should have packed my little bags and run for the hills, but I didn't. So, you were saying that actually umwhen you do find out who they are, it is all out war. It's all out war once they know thatyou're on to it. Yeah. What was that like? I mean, complete annihilation of me. So,anything I would do, say, want to be at, whatever. So things like, you know, I had an operation I needed to have 4-hourgeneral anesthetic on the morning said, "Sorry, I can't be there. I'm busy at work." My dad died during COVID. Uh thenext day he said, "Let's end the relationship. I, you know, I don't want to be around your sadness." Went to the funeral on my own during COVID. Um,things like that, things that if you explain them, and this is, I think, important to get on to, you explain itto an apparently normal person and you can see them thinking, what are you doing?Hey, what are you doing? Of course, but surely it can't have been exactly like that. Particularly if they know theperson, they seem so lovely and gentle and charming. Mine was a covert.They seem so giving and lovely, etc. Can't believe something else must have gone on in that story. aditted must besomething else that really really wasn't. So, you're trapped in a sense of I've also got sunk cost fallacy. Youknow, I've stayed so long and I've bet so many chips at the poker table. I've got to make it work.Yes. I can't I can't have lost all the money and walked away. Do you remember that film in Decent Proposal?Yes. Robert Redford or whatever. They've bet all their money. So, they cannot then walk. They've gotto hope that if I just bet a few more chips, it might come good. It's got to come good.Yeah. Yeah. So, that was their story. But my story in it was I went into it thinkingI'm older. I might not find anyone. My dis my um distorted belief was that thiscould be my last chance. I really thought it was my last chance to get married, settle down in a happy everafter. And so that was the work I then had to go back and do with my amazing therapist to say what was that that weneed to heal so that if you ever come into this situation again you would never stay. Yeah.And also I think um you being good at your job was almost um a problem becauseyou're like I can fix you. Yeah. you know, I've done it to so many people and for so many people thatum I I've got these baseline feelings, so let's kind of heal you so you canbecome perfect. What was interesting when I was training, you know, you do, you know, a term or two, it's five and a half years of training. You do a coupleof terms on personality disorders. Back when I trained, I think we must have done five minutes on narcissism. Therewas nothing. So, I didn't understand it at all at that point. It was only when I was trying to understand what the hellwas going on and then went and studied under sort of specific professors that have really researched narcissism thatsuddenly the whole world of it opened up to me. And at that point I was like oh my god like I really am with one.They really am. You asked a question though a second ago about do they know what they're doing by the way which I get asked a lot.Yes. Well because because you feel like Yeah. They must see a pattern ofbehavior that and it's and that it's cruel. Yes. And they do deep down. Yes.Because the reason we know that is the minute the lights, camera, action are on in whatever part of their life, theydon't do it. Oh, I see. Yes. So, when they're out in public. Yes.And not just alone with you. They would never do it. They would never ever do it. And towards the end whenthings were particularly hairy, every now and again something would be happening and I'd think, do you know what? I'm going to try and film it orrecord it because it's the only way that I can. And the minute they realized,stopped. And that's the cruel reality when you realize, oh my god, you can control theway that you're behaving. Yes. And it's really it's very disturbing. Yes.To see that in someone. It's really not just in someone, someone that you love. Love.Yeah. Someone that you are well intended towards. But once you finally trulyaccept it, you know you have to leave. And then it's about how do I do it?And is it about how do I do it because they make it very difficult for you toleave? Not necessarily. Some of them do. They'll be very manipulative with you to, you know, we call it hoovering. Youknow, they'll write you letters and send you mix tapes and, you know, tell you, actually, I've I used to have one thatsort, you know, my my one said to me, look, here's a house that I think we should buy. I've I know I've put in forthe I've put in for us to go and see it next Tuesday. And was that the dream that you dream that we had together? Um so all thethings that they we call it breadcrumbming or future faking. So they they know the story that you want to betrue. So suddenly they'll come right back in with it's fine. We'll buy the house. We'll do the thing. We'll all thethings that we were meant to have. And so you think, oh maybe because you wanted to be true. So maybe this isgoing to be what happens. So you go back in and within a matter of weeks you're straight back in. It is like domesticabuse. And I do think we need to accept that psychological abuse is as abusive.We just don't have any bruises and we don't want anyone to have any bruises but we don't have any bruises. Andthat's what makes it difficult. If you turned up to work or at their parents or you know your best friends with sockinggreat big black eyes, people would act. People would have an opinion. People would come into the rescue. All they'vegot are your stories that don't quite add up. And and it's a bit like you said thatpeople go it can't be we know them. We see them when we're out. They're lovely.It can't be that bad. It's quite an interesting protection mechanism. It's very very clever.It's very clever. It makes again it makes you look a bit mad. It's like perfect gaslight a bit injust deranged. We call it reactive abuse. You know, you take so much of it that eventually, you know, you'll have abit of a meltdown and people think, oh, you'll go to a dinner party where in the car on the way there, they've beenabsolutely hell on wheels. So, you turn up and you put your smile on, but it's pretty clear that your central nervoussystem is all over the show, but they're fine. And but they're fine. So, their friends are probably thinking, "Yes, she was abit strange at that dinner, but they have no idea what had been going on in the car on the way there."But it's it's frightening actually. Do you know one of the other things and we we've we've touched on it a bit but I
Narcissism In Kids
definitely want to deep dive into this because there will be lots of people watching who are parents. Yes.And I've got two girls and a boy and I know that you know all relationshipswhen you're a kid and you're growing up and you're um you're going through puberty and everything's changing um andschool is like a sometimes a battlefield, isn't it? for for some it is. But um this this kind of group mentalitya sort of pack bullying was it what did you call it um when there's a narcissismwith like a person one person who's the head of everything um the PTA for adultsbut isunal is it possible to have that in kids? Yes school absolutely school friendshipsof course in school. So all of these are what we know what we'd call sort of systemic there systems in some formsocial systems and in every social system there is normally a scapegoat of there's a common enemy horribly.Yes. In a group. Yeah. You've also got the leader of the pack that everyone looks up to for variousreasons. They're with the talking scapegoat. That's generally the kid that's bullied. The kid that's bullied as a scapegoat. The one that's ridiculed, bullied,blamed. All of those things. Horrible. And if you are that in a group at school, it'svery very difficult to undo it. It normally means you need to change schools schools year group, you know, or go tothe other, you know, if there's if there's six classes, you go to the other one over here. Wait, I I want to say that again forparents because I know a lot of parents who will have had the scapegoat.Yeah. And will be thinking, I'm going to keep them here. It'll get better next year.Da d I I think that is a brilliant piece of advice cuz I think sometimes you thinkoh let's not move them because it's it's such a hassle. Yeah. You know and wethink we want to teach them to work it through because we do we want to teach our children of course stand up to themor or whatever forms we have. I think it's okay to teach them those things to start with and see if it has anymaneuverability. But if a kid's been cancelled in a group, if you like, horrible language, but it's nowhappening, or they're constantly it's it's weeks and it's months of this, genuinely as a therapist, I would sayI've seen too many people struggle for too long. Yeah. Take them out. Help them to settlesomewhere better. And also, you want them to go and settle somewhere better before they're broken. That's the thing. Because these beliefsets that we get in long before we leave home, they're with us forever unless wework them out probably later in life in therapy. people, you know, people that are in their 40s, 50s, 60s will come tome now and talk about bullying even now and the impact it had on them. I do a lot of work with the stacking dolls. I'msort of known for it and I will talk about what ages were you when certain things really hurt, right?And often it will be an early teenage incident where they'll say this happened at school and that will be impactingthem in their 50s and 60s even now. I mean that is fascinating, isn't it?Yeah. that you can still be carrying that around. Of course,and I wonder how um these groups, you know, the so the person sometimes theleader of the pack might have some narcissistic traits and how they would feel if they saw thatperson later on in life, you know, whether it would just all happen all over again. Often not because oftensomething's happened for them to even become that person in the group. So often there's a story going on for allthe members and we can have some empathy for all the members. Why has that kid felt the need to take that role in someform, right? So there's something going on for them. I'm a huge advocate of going back andfinding some of the people that have hurt you and seeing whether or not it would be safe and appropriate to have aconversation. Oh, are you? I do it now with people and their parents. So I will teach them using empty chair technique,gestalt technique and then in real life rehearsing going and finding the parent. Wait, when you say gestalt technique, isthat the name of the technique? That's the name. So Gestalt therapy which is a particular form of therapy.Empty chair work is a very well-known technique where we would put a chair and we would imagine your mom in the chairnow. Okay. What might you want to say to her? So we'd rehearse that and work on that. Often if they've passed that's theonly way we can do it. But if they are still here and we might be very very terrified of them, but we might decideslowly to find a way to go and spend an afternoon and say, "Listen, there's a conversation I need to have with you."Having the conversation as an adult on behalf of the little child, I imagineyou've put the child on your knee and you're saying, "I am going to speak for my little Kathleen." And she will say tothe mother, the father, the partner, the bully at school, this is what it was like for me when you did that. I justneed you to know that. And it's the only time in therapy we're not interested in a two-way conversation. In that work,we're letting the little girl say, "This is what hap this is what happened when you did that to me. That's it."Has it ever happened to you that that went badly wrong? If people aren't prepared, if they go in too quick, too soon.Right. So, as a therapist, I work and work and work on the person and I always can tellbecause I can tell what's going on for them sematically, what's going in the body. What does that mean? So, sematically is what's going you feelit? So, people say, "Oh my god, even the thought that my mom's in that chair, you know, I've got a an erased heartbeat,got sweaty palms, you know, something's kicking off in my body." So, it's a physical reaction, physical reaction to even theimagination of them being to an imaginary thing, right? The school bully maybe in that instance.If we've worked long and hard enough and they actually want to do it, it's up to them and ready. When we do the finalrehearsal, they'll say, "I feel my central nervous system is perfectly online." Wow. Absolutely fine. I'm ready.So, they've done it that many times. That many times that the the system has saidsafe. I'm safe. Wow. Yeah. Now, once we've done that, whether they actually have the conversation ornot is slightly immaterial, but many people that do do it say, "It freed me from all those years and all thosefeelings that I had. I finally said what I needed to say." Lots of people say, "I'm worried about what my parent wouldsay back to me, what my ex partner would say back to me, what my school bully would say." We're not interested. It's the only timein therapy. We're not interested in what they would say. And also, I guess like if they're reallyworried about what they might say, then they're not ready to go. Okay. Yeah. Not ready. Okay. It's about us being able to speakup for the part that never ever found the courage, ability, space to do so.That's why it's so beautiful because they finally get the chance to be seen. And their reaction is immaterial.Particular if they're a narcissist, they're not going to really care us anyway. Yeah. Other than we may be angry, but we don't care to be angry. Uh it's about saying,"I've said what I needed to say and I can leave that there and I never have to carry it ever again. It's yours now."That that's brilliant to hear as well. I think if you've been a victim Yes. of a narcissistic anybody and it'sreally affected you. That visual that you've just done thereis very powerful. Yeah. We literally take all those feelings. We make sure we've seen them, acceptedthem, had some sense of compassion for them, and then we're like, "Okay, I'm ready. It's time. Here it is. Thank youvery much." Do you do you know that I think um another really powerful tool is when yourealize that you can advocate for yourself and that is feels like that.Yeah. Um that you don't need somebody to apologize. You need to go and advocatefor yourself. Um but you need to be in a place where you are doing it not expecting orneeding anything in return. You're done. But validation is very interesting with narcissistic abuse because uh the riskof course is if we if as you've just said we're seeking their validation. I mean good luck. You know they're notgoing to say you're absolutely right. I'm a dreadful person. I've got this terrible personality disorder. So if we're waiting for them to say do youknow what I was awful. We we're going to be waiting a very long disappointed. Where we can get validation is frompeople that understand narcissistic abuse. And that's why, you know, any group, whether it's AA, you know,whether it's a is there a narcissistic abuse group isn't in the UK.And if I could get funding to set it up, I'll set it up tomorrow because I foundwhen I was in my recovery, when I found other people that had really experiencedit, it's like a shorthand where they're like, first of all, I completely andutterly believe you. Secondly, did they do a bit a bit of stuff like that? And you're like, "Oh my god, totally." Andthen you can actually feel they get it. I'm safe to tell them the stories because often these stories are quiteconvoluted. Yes. Because it's quite insidious. So confused. So I think we definitely need this because it's soinsidious. It's hard. Great idea. It's definitely needed and I find that the validation in that sense is incrediblyhelpful. I actually found the ex two partners of my narcissist and I sat withthem both across it was a three decade gap and the abuse was identical and it was shockingbut it was the most healing. It released me from everything. It was amazing and I'm still very grateful to them both.And did they they knew he was going out with you? Yeah. And were they thinking, "Oh, maybe he'schanged. Maybe she's changed him." The ex-wife when I contacted her said, "I wondered how long I wondered how long itwould be before you contacted me." Wow. Yeah. Um, in NA they used to say, "The valueof one addict helping another is without parallel." And the value of one victimof narcissism [clears throat] helping another victim of narcissism is without parallel. It's that deeprooted empathy that nothing can beat. Nothing can beat. And it's got similar dynamics. You know, people fall off the
Why People Go Back To Narcissists
wagon in the sense that they go back to their narcissist. How common is that? Oh, we say it's very similar toaddiction. Seven or eight times would be the average time they'll go back. Trauma bonding. The trauma bond we haven'ttalked about. Trauma bonding is the very center of the pain. What is that? Trauma bonding is that um you feel thatyou cannot live without them. They're my one and only. They're my last chance. Right? So, we get bonded in that. And whathappens is when they discard you, you go through the devastation of being left or discarded. And then they say a monthlater, here's the house. Here's the promise. Here's the And your whole bodyis flooded with dopamine. And you're like, relief. We're back together again.It's a brain chemical. It's just as strong. They say in some quarters, and I hope this won't offend anybody that'shad any heroin issues, but it's as strong as heroin addiction, trauma bonding, because the anticipation andthen the relief. It's a very similar chemical cycle that you go through. And we call it trauma bonding innarcissistic relationships. Wow. I cannot be without them. I have to be with them. I've got to make it work.When it breaks and we have we go through cold turkey, it's so hideous. They come back and say, "Do you want another hit?"And you're like, "Yes, please. I've changed. Yeah. It's going to be different.Yeah. I've learned my lesson. I nearly lost you. Wow. Of that.But six or seven times. Six or seven times. So the family and friends and colleagues, they get sickand tired of Oh god. Because the first time they're like, "Thank God you're leaving them." Andafter a while they're like, "Listen, she's back with him again. Can't be bothered to or him or her can't bebothered to, you know, she's bound to go back to him." though. So then you're even more isolated because no one'ssupporting you anymore. They're sort of sick and tired of it all. Well, that is like an abusive relationship because then that isolatesyou even more from the people that care about you and it's great for the abuser. Yeah. So isolation is there twice. A,you can't say what they're really doing to you because you think, well, I should leave them then because they are doing that to me and you'll neverbelieve me because they appear so gorgeous in reality. And when they finally believe you and you leave them,if you go back, then you've lost their support. So the isolation is verycentral to narcissistic relationships. In families, you might be the one sibling that speaks up and says, "Thisis what's going on." The whole family will close in and and get rid of you. They put it under the carpet. You arethen ostracized from the family for daring to speak up. Happens in boardrooms. I see it all the time.
Narcissism In The Workplace
Happens in friendship groups. I want to talk about boardrooms um because that's the area we haven'treally kind of touched on yet. And work you you you mentioned earlier and I thought this was such a really potentobviously because I'm self-employed. I work in TV podcasts. Literally I've I'venever met someone mean like I just everybody that I seem to work with is just joyful. Yes. But in a cutthroatbusiness situation in a company, you know, your income depends on it.Your whole livelihood is dependent on you staying in this business and thingsare tough at the moment. The potential for a narcissist to really take advantage ofstaff. How does that present itself? So start at the beginning, which is Harvardreview. Harvard studies have showed us this. Narcissists are brilliant at interviews.First date, same thing. Oh my god. Of course. Secondly, if you read a standard jobdescription for a chief executive or a chief anything, confidence, deliberateness,you know, uh can speak really well in public, can instruct people well, narcissist,charismatic. We are advertising for these people. That's the irony of it. We're callingfor them and then 18 months later when it's all, excuse my French, gone to [ __ ] We're then like, "Oh god, have youseen what they're like?" But if they're in a leadership role, they can be very persuasive. You know, money makes theworld go around. They might be making a lot of money for a business, but the collateral damage of the people that areworking for them is unbelievable. And the way I talk about it is, you know, on corporate boards we have um governance,you know, for risk, for policy, for all sorts of stuff. What does governance? Governance, if you're a trustee oryou're a board member of a board, I'm a trustee for the NSPCC, for example. Governance is about making sure thebusiness is being run well and safely and within the rules of operation. Soyou you have a duty of care. So we have governance for for policy, for risk, for lots of for finance. You'll have peoplethat are singularly governing those things. We have nobody governingbehavior. Nobody. The only people we might think about isHR. I call them human remains because actually what they're doing is they'reat the directive of the CEO. So they don't even have even if they wanted to,they don't have the power to question what the CEO is doing. Right? So there is no power check forthese people. They are free to do as they wish. And if they're bringing the money into the business, the behavior isswept under the carpet. But this is really interesting because not only have you now got to start NAYeah. Um narcissist anonymous, but you've also now got to change that in the boardroom.That is not right. It's not right. Someone someone has to hold the CEOaccountable completely. And I'm really going to campaign strongly for this.So I've just finished my next book, Slime Mighty. And it's all about that. What are we going to do about it?Because everyone says, well, the CEO doesn't have a boss. They've probably got shareholders. They've got investorsfrom the city. There will be other people that fundamentally can. And soI've come up with this sort of, it's a bit cheeky, but the strategy is do you stay at this business? Do you play as indo you utilize it to your use for a period of time or do you slay? I'm not condoning anyone kills anybody. But slaymeans how do we get rid of a narcissistic boss? Yes. And the only way you can do it is not asan individual. You've got to do it as a collective. So you have to form a coup. If a lot of you on the board of thebusiness say we cannot work with him or her any longer to the shareholders, the investors or whatever, funnily enough,you'll probably find they'll get rid of them. So there's a whole world now we've got to look at about how do we manageour way through these people because they are rife. Um [snorts] I talk about about the dark triad. Narcissism,macavelianism and psychopathy. That's the dark psychopathy. Psychopath tendencies.Oh, I see. People doesn't care. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. When they did the research in thegeneral population, Deina 1% has got psychopathy. That feels like quite a lot.It's a lot. In business, guess what? No. How many? 4%.Times 400% more psychopaths in the workplace because leadership. You've gotleadership ability. Unfortunately, you may well have some of the dark triadtraits because they want that. If you're going to have to sack a load of people, you they don't want anybody with anyfeelings. You've just got to do it. Absolutely. And they see that as a bonus. Oh god, it's awful.Research 20% have high narcissistic traits. 20%.It's a lot of people. Wow. So we in statistically in business weare more likely to find these personality disorders than in the commonal dating everyday life. Andthat's why we've got to bring it to everybody's attention in a way that we can think about are you that boss? Andif you are, you know, you're leaving a legacy of harm, do you want to go to therapy and do something about it? Ifit's traits and personality, not the disorder. If you're one of the people suffering, what can we do to help you?If you're an investor, if you're a bystander, if you're in the team and you're seeing it happen and you don'tknow what to do to help the person, you could be in a group at school. What are you going to do about it? So, I'm on amission to start looking at what we do in workplaces. It would work the same in schools, work the same in friendshipgroups, anything that's a group of people. What can we do to start getting this right? I think that's um in in aschool group, you know, there are sometimes umlike there's sometimes one person who kind of secretly will go off and be niceto the person that's being bullied and goes, you know, sorry, like this is happening to you, but then they're toofrightened to do that when the gang is together. Totally the same in business. It will beI can see you're being bullied in the board meetings or in the sales meetings or whatever meetings, but they can'tthey feel they can't speak up because it could be their job on the line and it's their mortgage on the line. So, it's really high stakes.It's huge stakes, isn't it? And at school, it's like life and death. Of course, if I'm out of that gang, thenI'm done. Yeah. Um PTA meeting, you know, if you kids areat that school for the next few years, that one person could make your life a nightmare. It is. It's really hard aboutpower. So, will you just remind me us the name of the book? It's called Sly and Mighty.That's such a good because they're mighty. That's very good. They're mighty, but they're really soding sly. And so, how can we reallyexpose the slliness of their behavior, which will help us decide, can we get mighty with the slimeand and tools? You're giving everybody tools. Loads of tools. So, in in both of my books, starts off with what the hell isit? Whatever it is, this is amazing for tools. It really is. What is it? Is the first third. How doesit look in real life is the middle third in both books. The final third is okay, what are we going to do about it? Andthere's so much we can do about it. And that's where the hope can come back in. And I'd just like to also say to um anyCEOs watching, don't forget there are 80% that are good. Yes. Um you're not all bad.Um just wanted to say that. You know, we got to we got we got to big up the good guys and girls. And when they're good,it's so extremely wonderful. I've had so many bosses in my lifetime and in the main, they've been absolutely amazing.And I credit so much of what I've been able to become because of them. And this is the thing like great teachers, likegreat partners. You've just said with Michael, when we get it right, it changes our life for the better.Um, oh my god. Like literally, I'm just going to hold this up again. Um, Kathleen,thank you. Kathleen Saxton, she's written this amazing book, My Parent, The Peacock. I've got to say, I think mykids might say that about me. I I do stress about in like ridiculousoutfits and everything, but I I like to feel like I um I make up for it in other ways,like, you know, got um but my parent, the peacock, and um Sly and Mighty. Slyand Mighty coming out in September. Um so yeah, we've got you covered.Kathleen's got you covered. Um, thanks so much. That was absolutely brilliant.Round of applause for Kathleen, please. Oh, thank you. So, just in case you missed this episodehere, um, if you love this episode, I know you're going to love that.